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Jubei schrieb:PlayStation 3 price - $500?
Game Over is a weekly column by Chris Morris
January 11, 2006: 10:17 AM EST
Analysts, developers say they expect Sony's new console to break new price barriers.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) While there was little doubt the Xbox 360 was going to be a hit in the just completed holiday season, no one was real sure how consumers would react to the $399 price tag.
Despite the $100 bump over the launch price of the original Xbox, few seemed to mind. Now, with Sony's PlayStation 3 looming, it appears another price threshold may be crossed before the year is out.
Sony hasn't commented on specific pricing figures, though Ken Kutaragi, president of Sony Consumer Entertainment, reportedly told attendees of a 2005 corporate meeting "it'll be expensive." Analysts and many video game developers, though, suspect the system may debut with a price tag reaching nearly $500.
"[Sony] could now consider launching its PlayStation 3 at a price range of $399 to $499, with the $499 price point more likely," said American Technology Research's P.J. McNealy in a note to clients Monday.
Sony, as you might guess, didn't have much to say about McNealy's theory.
"We haven't made an official announcement about pricing yet," said Ryan Bowling, PR manager for Sony. "At this point, that's all speculation."
The strongest argument behind the $499 price point is the PS3's inclusion of a Blu-Ray drive. This bleeding edge technology will give Sony (Research) significant bragging rights, but it comes at a cost. Pioneer last week at the Consumer Electronics Show unveiled a standalone Blu-Ray player for $1,800.
Obviously, Pioneer's earning some profit there and Sony will almost certainly subsidize the cost of the drives, but you're still looking at an expensive bit of hardware. The PS3 will also feature other pricey items, such as a hard drive, the Cell processor and a new graphics chip from nVidia (Research).
Developers, for the most part, say they, too, are expecting the PS3 to be more expensive than the Xbox 360's highest price package. Sony, they said, has been sending mixed messages to the gaming world, but several developers I spoke with (under the condition of anonymity) said their studios were expecting the system to launch at $499.
There wasn't universal consensus, though. Some predicted the price would be closer to $450, others said they wouldn't be surprised if it was as high as $600. $700 was mentioned by a couple of developers, though even they said the number seemed unreasonable. And one game maker felt Sony would try to stay in line with Microsoft, offering the PS3 for just $399.
None of the developers, by the way, echoed my hypothetical theory that Sony might be pulling a head-fake on Microsoft with the high price warnings, though a couple did bring up the months of speculation leading up to the PSP's launch. Analysts, journalists and even publishers were wildly grasping for a solid clue about the launch price of the handheld device. (Atari's CEO even publicly proclaimed he expected the PSP to sell for $500.)
Sony, while this went on, smiled enigmatically and did nothing to dissuade anyone that the device would be $300 or more. It launched at $249, still incredibly expensive by handheld standards, but lower than some consumers were expecting.
We're seeing much the same thing with the PS3. After an onslaught of information last May, the company hasn't released any information of substance. Even at CES, the device was an essential no-show. (A hardware design was there to be gawked at and a video loop of potential gameplay footage, but no new information was announced.)
There's one other possibility about the PS3 that few people have discussed: Dual-pricing strategies. It's frustrating from a consumer standpoint, but Microsoft proved it can work at least in the U.S. Whether Sony's willing to risk fragmenting the market by offering both "bare bones" and "bells and whistles" versions of the PS3 is another matter.
For one thing, it would look as if Sony were following Microsoft's (Research) lead a vision the market leader does not want to convey. Offering a PS3 with reduced features would also chip away at the company's stance that the system is much more than a video game machine.
Whatever Sony decides, we should start to get some sort of clarification in the next few months almost certainly by E3 in May. One thing's for sure, though: For saying a whole lot of nothing, Sony has somehow managed to keep everybody talking about its product.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/11/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm
I decided to start a thread about what the Guerrilla Games dev team is talking about on another board, since we have our own team here giving their side of programming on the PS3. The following quotes are going to be questions from posters and answers from the devs. After reading please don't start a KZ2 isn't real or PS3 vs. Xbox 360 flame war!
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Originally Posted by poster
I know you cant give any specifics on PS3 info that Sony hasnt released yet, but i was wondering: Are you creating the online for KZ3 or is this outfit, http://www.gamesindustry.biz/jobs.ph...=EUROPE&action
=view&job_id=22257 ? I was wondering because it would be cool ofr you to be able to keep your mind on the game and let them take care of that for you.
GG dev: Nope, all in-house. London offices are making their own games which will be online on PS3. I can't say much, but I will say that Online is going bleeping great.
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Originally Posted by poster
Also I just wanted to know if the E3 presentation of Killzone 2 was in real-time or if it was just cg. Because I know a lot of people who say that the video is fake and I really want to prove them wrong.
GG dev:
As for the E3 presentation, it was not running live on Dev Kits, as the final spec dev kits did not exist for E3. It was created to the specs of the PS3 and represents what we feel is achievable on PS3.
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Originally Posted by poster
1 more thing if i may, Will there be any KeyBoard/Mouse support for the next gen KZ???
That would be great to have the extra accuracy a KB/M allow's
GG dev: Keyboard / Mouse support is a difficult one because of the balancing issues. First, you have to tune the game separately - once for controller and once for keyboard / mouse. Then, you also have the problem of keeping online fair - i.e. not letting the players using keyboard / mouse have an advantage over those using controllers in the same game.
It's a tricky problem - We do realize it is a requested feature, however we are not committing to anything at this time.
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Originally Posted by poster
Question 1. Do you know how you came to "feel" that was achiveable?
Question 2. If you just looked at theoretical specs, did you take into account that you might not get all of it?
Question 3. Accept for the uber-high polygon count, you also seem to have effects that would not be achievable in realtime, like the hypervoxel smoke (atleast that's what people say you have in the trailer)
Question 4. Have you recieved the final devkits? Do you feel confident about it by now?
GG dev: Answer 1. Our experience as game developers
Answer 2. Yep!
Answer 3. I've seen some amazing effects done real time by not only Guerrilla but other PS3 dev teams. As these teams continue to push what the PS3 is capable of - then we'll see just what is achievable in real-time.
Answer 4. Not allowed to answer that one.
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Originally Posted by poster
Whats goin on Ferret. I have one for you conserning the vehicles, though I don't believe you can answer it. In the ew game, will there be vehicles in multiplayer? (kind-of like those guys at Zipper did in Socom3)
GG dev: Unfortunately, we can't confirm or deny this at this time. However, this is on the official suggestion list.
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How do you feel, personally, about next-gen development? Is it exciting for you as a developer to really unleash what you have always wanted and envisioned?
GG dev: The scale of the whole project has gotten tremendously huge and daunting. The team sizes have grown to such an extend I don't know at least 15 of the people here anymore. During Killzone 1 I knew if someone made a bug in a certain level I could go to the person directly and talk to them about it. I knew immediatly where they sat, what their MSN was and now I don't even know their first names....It is all very exciting and scary at the same time, and the risk-factor for all new games seems to have gone up quite a bit. But the chances for making things that were previously not possible due to hardware limitations is really cool
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PS2 had very little HARD-WIRED graphical effects and so they had to implemented via the software route in the Emotion Engine, has this learning curve helped you become more efficiant at coding for architectures like the EE ( i.e MULTIPLE CORE ).
GG dev: Well, for KZ1 we had to code a lot for all the cores in the system (R5900, IOP, VU0 and VU1) and we spent a lot of time making sure the communications between the cores was as fast as it could be.
Now we're working with the Cell chip, which is a whole different ballgame. It's easier in some respect (easier to program for), but it's also a lot more complex, so a lot more cores to keep busy at the same time.
But in the end, yeah, programming a PS2's EE will give you a leg up programming for multi-core architectures, especially the Cell. Hope that answers your question! If you have any more, shoot!
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Originally Posted by poster
So, what I would really like to know is, how does one go about organizing their objects in C++ to utilize the SPEs as efficiently as possible?...We've heard many times that programming for Cell requires one to "think differently" but by the sounds of some of your earlier comments it really seems that programming on the Cell is not quite as daunting as the rumors would have you believe.....Gabe Newell said in an interview on G4 that Naughty Dog was really far along with multithreaded programming. Now that you guys are a part of Sony, have you found it a good experience working with the Devs over at Naughty Dog?
GG dev: More of these low-level questions on the board. Yeesh, are you guys coders, or what?!? I think I have to err on the side of caution here, NDA's and confidentiality with regards to Cell are still quite tricky. Cell is definitively different from anything else. With parallelism people often think 'multithreading'. But how good will it be, running threads on tiny CPU's like the SPU's, really? It works, but it won't be optimal. If you think of it more as a network of small computers sending each other packets of data, it all starts to make a lot more sense.
We've had some good contact with the devs in Europe off late and we're planning gettothers(personal comment: Ninja Theory maybe? DeanoC or nAo do you know about this?). We haven't had a lot of time yet to meet up with the US devs, but that's underway too. It's all pretty new to us too, we were close to Sony before, but never really part of the group. It's definitely cool being part of the gang, Sony has some really talented people working for them.
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Originally Posted by poster
How do you feel about the Killzone PSP title you have been developing?
GG dev: Well, without getting in trouble - I can say that the PSP title is something I'm really excited to be working with the team on. Uh, don't know how much else I can say... Really, really excited!
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Originally Posted by poster
One aspect of the Cell (and your game put me on to this with that E3 demo) that really interests me is physics calculations. One thing I'd like work with when I get my PS3 and a GCC compiler or two is some dual precision physics formulas. I wonder if it would be possible to run or store data on another SPE and program a routine for one SPE to reference a location on another SPE? That EIB looks like it has bandwidth to spare for such an operation, but I bet it would have to be massively complex. Real early on when the PS3 was announced with the Cell BE is that SPEs could run applications independantly or in synchronization somehow.
GG dev: I can't tell you much more than you can deduce from the public specs from IBM, but I think you're on the right track. No SPE in the Cell is a slave to the system, so they can all move data around on the EIB. It would be wasteful for one SPE to use memory of another (why would you? each SPE has its own), but for physics you could have different SPEs doing different parts of the world - in parallel. Or you could have a few SPEs doing collision detection and others doing collision response.
Does that make sense?
On the massively parallel thing, there are actually developments in that direction. IBM has got something in development, called Octopiler (http://www.research.ibm.com/cellcompiler/compiler.htm), but I have not taken a look at it myself yet. But if you're on the case, you might want to check it out.
There's also loads of nice articles floating around on the net off late (on Gamasutra and other game-dev sites) about parallel programming, although most of the tend to be on threaded programming and not specifically Cell.
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Originally Posted by poster
posted on the Playstation website and some other gaming job websites leads me to believe that Sony is actually going to create a better, more cohesive online service
GG dev: I'm am so treading on the line of NDA here. Um... we as developers are very aware of the features Xbox has for it's online service, and many of these features are things we believe are neccessary for our games. We do 1st party games for Sony, but there are lots of 3rd party developers as well - and these are the folks that Sony Computer Entertainment as a whole has to work with to create any kind of platform-wide system like Xbox has.
We don't have much insight into what discussions take place with 3rd party developers and publishers - but I can at least say that the SCE World Wide Studios (of which we are a part) is very committed to providing the necessary online features in our future games. We realize the direction online gaming is going, and we very much want to provide these features in our games. How this will come about is not something we can talk about.
Unfortunately, that's as much as I can say without seriously getting in trouble.
And that's it (so far). I will keep posting what the Guerrilla devs say about Killzone for the PSP and/or PS3, PS3 game development, and the video game industry as a whole. Again I love the Ninja Theory guys and want them to keep posting here, but I just wanted to show the love to Guerrilla too, because if it was up to B3D you would think Guerrilla doesn't talk about their videogames.
So please comment on anything that sounds relevent to you about Killzone 2 or PS3 game development. Again please don't start a KZ2 isn't real or PS3 vs. Xbox 360 flame war!
Thanks for your time.
Herfoor schrieb:naja, wenn ich mir ne 360 holen sollte, wäre Gold Pflicht für mich. Würd mir dann halt so ne Gamingcart im Preis eines Spieles holen und fertig. Mit Live hat man ja auch viel Spass...also sind 60(?) okey...
Muss man eigentlich für die Demos einzeln zahlen??
Herfoor schrieb:naja, wenn ich mir ne 360 holen sollte, wäre Gold Pflicht für mich. Würd mir dann halt so ne Gamingcart im Preis eines Spieles holen und fertig. Mit Live hat man ja auch viel Spass...also sind 60(?) okey...
Muss man eigentlich für die Demos einzeln zahlen??
Sponkman schrieb:Na toll, dann gehen alle Daten an Ms und deren Marketing-Leute können schön ein Profil von mir erstellen. Dann noch die Quersumme aller live zocker und schon steht gears of war im laden ... danke!
Mell@ce schrieb:Sponkman schrieb:Na toll, dann gehen alle Daten an Ms und deren Marketing-Leute können schön ein Profil von mir erstellen. Dann noch die Quersumme aller live zocker und schon steht gears of war im laden ... danke!
Habe ich jetzt nicht verstanden. (das mit gears of war)
Mell@ce schrieb:Aber in der neuen Version von XBOX-Live soll man sich wenigstens entscheiden können, ob die Box direkt beim Einschalten, was sie derzeit tut, schon online geht oder nicht.
frames60 schrieb:Mell@ce schrieb:Aber in der neuen Version von XBOX-Live soll man sich wenigstens entscheiden können, ob die Box direkt beim Einschalten, was sie derzeit tut, schon online geht oder nicht.
Das is ja im Prinzip egal. Auf der Konsole ist ja nichts, was irgendwie für jemanden von datenrechtlicher Bedeutung wäre. Die persönlichen Angaben hat MS ja eh durch die Anmeldung und was sonst noch drauf ist, damit kann ja niemand was (datenrechtlich bedenkliches) anfangen. Einzig sollte es eben nicht passieren (wie bei CoD2), dass beim Abbruch der Verbindung das Spiel abkachelt, aber das sollte kein Problem sein. Auf Konsole sehe ich das "dauernd online sein" daher problemlos, auf PC wäre es was anderes, weil dort auch ganz andere Daten lagern, wo ich eher mißtrauisch wäre, wenn jemand "Dauerzugriff" hätte.
BigBilly schrieb:@Sponkman also du denkst ,wenn zb sehr viele egoshooter,rennspiele,beat em ups online gezockt das dann MS die hersteller auffordert fortsetzungen zu machen bzw ein genre weiter zu fördern?
Na wenn das ned mal toll ist
Aber dazu muss ms kein profil erstellen,die spieleentwickler sehens ja am eigenen geldbeutel ob ihr game ein hit ist oder geflopt.
Sponkman schrieb:BigBilly schrieb:@Sponkman also du denkst ,wenn zb sehr viele egoshooter,rennspiele,beat em ups online gezockt das dann MS die hersteller auffordert fortsetzungen zu machen bzw ein genre weiter zu fördern?
Na wenn das ned mal toll ist
Aber dazu muss ms kein profil erstellen,die spieleentwickler sehens ja am eigenen geldbeutel ob ihr game ein hit ist oder geflopt.
Ich will das die Publisher sich nicht nur nach mir richten. Wenn ein junger innovativer geist daherkommt, dann sollen sie ihm ruhig seine chancen geben, auch wenn "kein markt für sein spiel da ist". DAS stört mich !
xbox live hilft den vertreibenden firmen (nicht den entwicklern) festzustellen welche spiele man ihrer meinung nach in zukunft fördern solltejacked schrieb:Sponkman schrieb:BigBilly schrieb:@Sponkman also du denkst ,wenn zb sehr viele egoshooter,rennspiele,beat em ups online gezockt das dann MS die hersteller auffordert fortsetzungen zu machen bzw ein genre weiter zu fördern?
Na wenn das ned mal toll ist
Aber dazu muss ms kein profil erstellen,die spieleentwickler sehens ja am eigenen geldbeutel ob ihr game ein hit ist oder geflopt.
Ich will das die Publisher sich nicht nur nach mir richten. Wenn ein junger innovativer geist daherkommt, dann sollen sie ihm ruhig seine chancen geben, auch wenn "kein markt für sein spiel da ist". DAS stört mich !
Ähm, was hat das mit XboxLive zu tun?
Ob ein Markt für ein Genre da ist oder nicht, sehen die an den Verkaufszahlen, was für Erkenntnisse sollen die denn bei XboxLive ausspionieren?